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	<title>Comments on: Abortion destroys freedom</title>
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		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1817</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1810</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Dec 2006 02:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1786</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Dec 2006 11:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dustin</title>
		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1453</link>
		<dc:creator>Dustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 11:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1453</guid>
		<description>Here is the Church's official stance on abortion:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.

The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:

â€¢ Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or

â€¢ A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or

â€¢ A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct.

The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
http://www.lds.org/newsroom/issues/answer/0,19491,6056-1-201-10-201,00.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the Church&#8217;s official stance on abortion:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.</p>
<p>The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:</p>
<p>â€¢ Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or</p>
<p>â€¢ A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or</p>
<p>â€¢ A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.</p>
<p>The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct.</p>
<p>The Church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion.
</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.lds.org/newsroom/issues/answer/0,19491,6056-1-201-10-201,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lds.org/newsroom/issues/answer/0,19491,6056-1-201-10-201,00.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Colin Caret</title>
		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1433</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Caret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 21:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1433</guid>
		<description>Brandon, I agree that you never stated that a fetus is a person, but did say "...killing it would prevent it from being able to make choices, thereby limiting itâ€™s potential freedom and life."  If a fetus is not a person, then it cannot make any choices, so you aren't preventing it from doing any such thing.  Only persons, with reasons and the ability to will themselves to act, can make choices, hence killing a non-person does not prevent anything from making choices because the thing you are killing does not have that ability.  It seems to me that because you claim killing a fetus prevents it from making choices you are implicitly commited to the fact that it must be the kind of thing that can make choices in the first place: a person.

I think what you should probably say instead is that in killing a fetus one is killing something that could eventually become a person.  In that case, you are preventing this potential future person from making any choiced because you are ensuring they will never exist.  There are two important things to notice about this way of stating the case....

1) The analogy with pro-choice advocacy breaks down.  Actual persons can make choices about their lives and it is wrong to prevent them from making some of those choices.  Potential persons cannot make choices (not now) because they don't even exist yet.  So there is no simple analogy between "preventing the mother from choosing abortion" and "preventing the potential person from choosing (whatever)" since we are talking about very different kinds of issues in each case.

2) Once you see this, it becomes incumbent upon the pro-lifer to make the case that preventing a potential person from existing is unethical.  However, this is going to be a tough case to make.  Just consider the following thought experiment as one kind of counterexample: suppose it were possible through the use of some alien technology to turn every cell in your body into a perfect clone of you.  Would it follow that anyone who declined to have this procedure was doing something unethical?  It would if preventing the existence of potential persons (millions of them in this case) is wrong.  But that conclusion seems crazy, so there must be something incorrect about the principle that preventing the existence of potential persons is always wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brandon, I agree that you never stated that a fetus is a person, but did say &#8220;&#8230;killing it would prevent it from being able to make choices, thereby limiting itâ€™s potential freedom and life.&#8221;  If a fetus is not a person, then it cannot make any choices, so you aren&#8217;t preventing it from doing any such thing.  Only persons, with reasons and the ability to will themselves to act, can make choices, hence killing a non-person does not prevent anything from making choices because the thing you are killing does not have that ability.  It seems to me that because you claim killing a fetus prevents it from making choices you are implicitly commited to the fact that it must be the kind of thing that can make choices in the first place: a person.</p>
<p>I think what you should probably say instead is that in killing a fetus one is killing something that could eventually become a person.  In that case, you are preventing this potential future person from making any choiced because you are ensuring they will never exist.  There are two important things to notice about this way of stating the case&#8230;.</p>
<p>1) The analogy with pro-choice advocacy breaks down.  Actual persons can make choices about their lives and it is wrong to prevent them from making some of those choices.  Potential persons cannot make choices (not now) because they don&#8217;t even exist yet.  So there is no simple analogy between &#8220;preventing the mother from choosing abortion&#8221; and &#8220;preventing the potential person from choosing (whatever)&#8221; since we are talking about very different kinds of issues in each case.</p>
<p>2) Once you see this, it becomes incumbent upon the pro-lifer to make the case that preventing a potential person from existing is unethical.  However, this is going to be a tough case to make.  Just consider the following thought experiment as one kind of counterexample: suppose it were possible through the use of some alien technology to turn every cell in your body into a perfect clone of you.  Would it follow that anyone who declined to have this procedure was doing something unethical?  It would if preventing the existence of potential persons (millions of them in this case) is wrong.  But that conclusion seems crazy, so there must be something incorrect about the principle that preventing the existence of potential persons is always wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Dustin</title>
		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1427</link>
		<dc:creator>Dustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 22:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1427</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Is a Fetus a Person?...&lt;/strong&gt;

A comment made in one of Brandon&#8217;s posts posed the question, &#8220;is a fetus a person?&#8221; (I&#8217;ll make the assumption that a &#8220;person&#8221; is a human being with both spirit and body.) I believe so. Why? I think my belief spawns f...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Is a Fetus a Person?&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>A comment made in one of Brandon&#8217;s posts posed the question, &#8220;is a fetus a person?&#8221; (I&#8217;ll make the assumption that a &#8220;person&#8221; is a human being with both spirit and body.) I believe so. Why? I think my belief spawns f&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1426</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oh, my comments alone definitely weren't meant to settle the debate. It's just another facet of it that I wanted bring up. Also, I never stated that a fetus is a person, only that killing it would prevent it from being able to make choices, thereby limiting it's potential freedom and life.

In case of rape or insest, I can see where in certain cases an abortion might be appropriate.

Thanks for your comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, my comments alone definitely weren&#8217;t meant to settle the debate. It&#8217;s just another facet of it that I wanted bring up. Also, I never stated that a fetus is a person, only that killing it would prevent it from being able to make choices, thereby limiting it&#8217;s potential freedom and life.</p>
<p>In case of rape or insest, I can see where in certain cases an abortion might be appropriate.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Caret</title>
		<link>http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1418</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Caret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.latterdayblog.com/abortion-destroys-freedom.html#comment-1418</guid>
		<description>You can't possibly think that settles the debate.  Surely it must strike you that this is a little too easy.  But let's consider exactly why your response is too easy.  You point out that pro-choicers would be in trouble if they believed the following two things...

1) it is always wrong to prevent any persons from having the opportunity to freely exercise their choice with regard to anything they want.

2) a fetus is a person.

.. These two beliefs are incompatible with the pro-choice view that it is permissible to kill a fetus (thus preventing its ability to make choices).  However, there are two different ways that a pro-choicer can avoid this  problem.  The most obvious one is to reject the second claim, which many pro-choicers do in fact reject.  In that case they are still being consistent.  Another tactic is to give a more nuanced principle than the one expressed in that first claim above.  Something like...

1') it is wrong to prevent a person from having the opportunity to freely exercise their choice with respect to the use of their body.

This claim is compatible with the idea that, while every person has a right to life, they do not necessarily have the right to the things required to live.  In particular, someone who endorses the (1') claim can agree that a fetus is a person with a right to life, but consistently deny that the fetus has a right to the use of the mother's body because the mother must have the opportunity to choose how her body is used, and by whom.

So, as you can see, your dialectical gambit does not so easily secure the conclusion that abortion is wrong.  Also, on an unrelated note to what I've already said, I just wanted to point out how offensive it can be to label all abortions 'selfish'.  Do you honestly think that a young girl who is raped by her stepfather and gets pregnant is being &lt;i&gt;selfish&lt;/i&gt; when she gets an abortion?  That seems like a vulgar characterization of her situation or the situation of anyone who gets an abortion as a victim of some brutal sex crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t possibly think that settles the debate.  Surely it must strike you that this is a little too easy.  But let&#8217;s consider exactly why your response is too easy.  You point out that pro-choicers would be in trouble if they believed the following two things&#8230;</p>
<p>1) it is always wrong to prevent any persons from having the opportunity to freely exercise their choice with regard to anything they want.</p>
<p>2) a fetus is a person.</p>
<p>.. These two beliefs are incompatible with the pro-choice view that it is permissible to kill a fetus (thus preventing its ability to make choices).  However, there are two different ways that a pro-choicer can avoid this  problem.  The most obvious one is to reject the second claim, which many pro-choicers do in fact reject.  In that case they are still being consistent.  Another tactic is to give a more nuanced principle than the one expressed in that first claim above.  Something like&#8230;</p>
<p>1&#8242;) it is wrong to prevent a person from having the opportunity to freely exercise their choice with respect to the use of their body.</p>
<p>This claim is compatible with the idea that, while every person has a right to life, they do not necessarily have the right to the things required to live.  In particular, someone who endorses the (1&#8242;) claim can agree that a fetus is a person with a right to life, but consistently deny that the fetus has a right to the use of the mother&#8217;s body because the mother must have the opportunity to choose how her body is used, and by whom.</p>
<p>So, as you can see, your dialectical gambit does not so easily secure the conclusion that abortion is wrong.  Also, on an unrelated note to what I&#8217;ve already said, I just wanted to point out how offensive it can be to label all abortions &#8217;selfish&#8217;.  Do you honestly think that a young girl who is raped by her stepfather and gets pregnant is being <i>selfish</i> when she gets an abortion?  That seems like a vulgar characterization of her situation or the situation of anyone who gets an abortion as a victim of some brutal sex crime.</p>
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